Fitzgerald Kennedy ?

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Re: Fitzgerald Kennedy ?

Messaggioda Romegas » mercoledì 30 agosto 2017, 11:04

Anche le leggende è risaputo che hanno semore un fondo di verità.
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Re: Fitzgerald Kennedy ?

Messaggioda Elmar Lang » mercoledì 30 agosto 2017, 11:07

Perhaps, the truth and the documents have been stolen by members of the "Illuminati" and are now hidden somewhere (as a believable source reports, all should be sealed under the third stone at Stonehenge).
Bibliography: Eamon O'Gerald: "The Italian-Irish gentry in the early Crusades' age"; Dublin, IUP, 1962, volevo XCI, PP. 365-411.
Non fidatevi mai delle statistiche, se non siete stati voi a falsificarle. (P. Kalpholz)
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Re: Fitzgerald Kennedy ?

Messaggioda Elmar Lang » mercoledì 30 agosto 2017, 11:09

Romegas ha scritto:Anche le leggende è risaputo che hanno semore un fondo di verità.


Eccellente assunto metodologico, per intraprendere un serio lavoro di ricerca storica.
Non fidatevi mai delle statistiche, se non siete stati voi a falsificarle. (P. Kalpholz)
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Re: Fitzgerald Kennedy ?

Messaggioda Romegas » mercoledì 30 agosto 2017, 11:11

Elmar, non sono io a dirlo ma gli antropologi culturali.
Sub hoc signo militamus
Sol per difesa io pungo
(Contrada Sovrana dell'Istrice)
Initium sapientiae timor Domini
(Sal. 111,10)
Socio A.I.O.C.
Socio I.A.G.I.
Romegas
 
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Re: Fitzgerald Kennedy ?

Messaggioda Elmar Lang » mercoledì 30 agosto 2017, 11:18

Comunque, l'importante è saper distinguere il vero dalla leggenda, mai dimenticando che un'ipotesi non suffragata da prove, resta sempre un'ipotesi.
Non fidatevi mai delle statistiche, se non siete stati voi a falsificarle. (P. Kalpholz)
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Elmar Lang
 
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Re: Fitzgerald Kennedy ?

Messaggioda Romegas » mercoledì 30 agosto 2017, 11:20

Se leggi meglio quello da me scritto, si arriva alle tue conclusioni. Non si scarta nulla, in attesa delle prove.
Sub hoc signo militamus
Sol per difesa io pungo
(Contrada Sovrana dell'Istrice)
Initium sapientiae timor Domini
(Sal. 111,10)
Socio A.I.O.C.
Socio I.A.G.I.
Romegas
 
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Re: Fitzgerald Kennedy ?

Messaggioda VictorIII » giovedì 31 agosto 2017, 6:28

as I see it, the potential harm is not found in the desire to uncover lost truths or in the virtuous pursuit of continuing a healthy exchange and discourse as Romegas does (which is to say - as always, I see value in the questions posed by romegas) ... but rather the potential harm lies in selective enforcement of the rules that build such important foundations of the genealogical and historical institutes of which many of you are so deeply involved in.

So yes, there are lots of histories that "may be", and one day, they very well, may indeed be ... but only if supported by the proper primary documents - and then even primary documents need to have other historical "supports", to strengthen the narrative and provenance. The absolute and unconditional requirement of this full scientific and documentary support is the lifeline of true scholarship and the deciding difference between that authentic histories that matter and those folkloric tales that are often excused away from this forum.

Now of course I fully understand that sometimes these less provable enticements are discussed late in the night by otherwise scholarly circles, almost like a guilty pleasure. It can't be all birth acts and tax records ... there must be some mystery and fun in historical searches, I suppose!

But, the potential harm of these fun little pleasures is that they eventually leave those late night indulgences where the unprovable tale might be considered if even humorously, but by men and women broadly studied, and enter the more common realm, maybe on a forum or at a bar. (when you are bored ... look up the "Savoie" settlers in colonial Canada, many of whom are still absolutely convinced that they weren't named for the territory in France they had farmed, but of course descend from a royal house!). And that's when a "harmless" question becomes the potential foundation of generations of embellished history. And it's not just a robbery of the newly 'integrated' history, diminishing the achievements of the original family by wrongfully spawning and mass producing the cherished patrimony of an unrelated great House.

I can't begin to tell you how bad this situation is in the United States. I've posted about it before. Otherwise sensible families with strong colonial histories are in some cases absolutely convinced in countless royal connections even without probable links. Maybe we can just politely say, "Oh wow, you really *do* come from an important family!" but the harm is so much deeper. When false stories are perpetuated, the real histories can become lost among a greater statistical 'supply' of stories, and that's dangerous too.

Going back to the case of the FitzGeralds, look, the very mention of the letters sent to the Gherardini is a potential time bomb, not to this case even but to so many others that may arise. (Also, giving full respect to the Irish people, we have to consider the vast disparity in economic and cultural conditions between Ireland and the Italian States in the 16th century. Plainly put - a nobleman from a major Italian city lived a very different condition from an Irish nobleman in that same period. So sure, it makes sense to me that FitzGerald probably wanted that link! He even asks for more history to build his own provenance ... as it is said about qualifications of membership for certain clubs or groups, '...*If you must ask* ... ")

Or looking forward in time, what if I decided to write a noble House in Italy with some general greetings and some vague recollections of some remote oral origins of my family? Maybe that family writes me back, politely and even acknowledges some aspects of an oral history that I relayed. By these implied standards, maybe my descendants would find the writings and be able to use it as grounds to continue the search in that direction, of course only sending them on a wild goose chase, further hiding the real history, losing it even deeper to time and cheating the true descendants of the family mentioned of their history, which will by then be unknowingly borrowed by unrelated people.

My takeaways: Be rigid. Be careful to treat the great Italian histories as so special and unique and not for others to borrow at will!. And don't ever negotiate history.

With the fullest respect to all who have posted here

(Thanks to you all for allowing me to write in English and to speak on a topic that I am very passionate about)
VictorIII
 
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